Sort of like medicare being defrauded for 60 billion a year while serving a small part of the population.
The part of the population that is most likely to be a target of a scam and most likely to require health care in the first place. I'm sure that has nothing to do with it at all.
One shitty bureaucracy that cant keep its books straight and has no reason to care, vs another shitty bureaucracy that has the exact same problem. Great. Whats the capitalist solution to this problem? You know, that thing where rivals pressure each other to give a shit? Whats that called?
Goal!
Caz1982 said:
One shitty bureaucracy that cant keep its books straight and has no reason to care, vs another shitty bureaucracy that has the exact same problem. Great. Whats the capitalist solution to this problem? You know, that thing where rivals pressure each other to give a shit? Whats that called?
One shitty bureaucracy that cant keep its books straight and has no reason to care, vs another shitty bureaucracy that has the exact same problem. Great. Whats the capitalist solution to this problem? You know, that thing where rivals pressure each other to give a shit? Whats that called?
Yes but if the government's shitty bureaucracy gets out of control there is no place to go for justice. They own the courts so you will just be out of luck.
Yes but if the government's shitty bureaucracy gets out of control there is no place to go for justice. They own the courts so you will just be out of luck.
Right, the U.S. has no separation of powers whatsoever and the courts are not a check on legislative, executive or bureaucratic overreach and never have been.
I suppose I'm not surprised that you have no faith whatsoever in any part of your country's governance, but you might be shocked to learn that your apathy and distrust is neither justified or widespread.
They own the courts so you will just be out of luck.
yeeeeaaaaah.... private corporations would never, ever do anything corrupt like that. obviously the justice department has every reason to suck up to the HHS, too. Why, the president might fire an appellate court judge or <gasp> even the chief justice!
Separation of powers/checks and balances/the public option is NOT going to get 100% of the market anyway.... relax. have a slice of pie. this will do absolutely nothing to your awesome private health insurance besides possibly lower the price.
damn you Wander... rock, paper, scissors on three....
There's also voting out the bastards who refuse to adminster public health insurance properly. you know, like how the government is afraid to cut back on social security or medicare because the eldery will vote for the other guy in retaliation.
I mean, isn't it taken as an article of faith amongst conservatives that social security and medicare are untouchable because cutting them back is tantamount to political suicide for the party that does it?
How does that square with the dire assertion that public health insurance will be rife with government mismanagement and the populace will be helpless to stop it?
I mean, isn't it taken as an article of faith amongst conservatives that social security and medicare are untouchable because cutting them back is tantamount to political suicide for the party that does it?
How does that square with the dire assertion that public health insurance will be rife with government mismanagement and the populace will be helpless to stop it?
well, the public option is an option. SS and Medicare are welfare programs. There is a difference.
Caz1982 said:
well, the public option is an option. SS and Medicare are welfare programs. There is a difference.
well, the public option is an option. SS and Medicare are welfare programs. There is a difference.
That said, given how large a voting bloc those with the public option will represent...
I guess the analogy isn't exact enough to pass muster - depending on the final shape of the public option, that is.
The US government has demonstrated how it thinks health care should be administered using Native Americans as their test subjects. The government has all the money and power in the country behind them and look how they treat people in their care.
And people think they will do better on a larger scale?
And people think they will do better on a larger scale?
I would be surprised if it passed
yea.
I would love, love, to see the govt get some competitive administrative experience under its belt dealing w the public option and see them apply it to welfare programs, and maybe contain their cost a bit better.
I would love, love, to see the govt get some competitive administrative experience under its belt dealing w the public option and see them apply it to welfare programs, and maybe contain their cost a bit better.
The US government has demonstrated how it thinks health care should be administered using Native Americans as their test subjects.
/flashback to previous retarded conversation...
The US government has demonstrated how it thinks health care should be administered using Native Americans as their test subjects. The government has all the money and power in the country behind them and look how they treat people in their care.
Such an audacious lie.
A lie? So Native americans have all the health care they need?
Please enlighten me.
Please enlighten me.
A lie? So Native americans have all the health care they need?
do you work for Fox News?
A lie? So Native americans have all the health care they need?
No, it's a lie that Native health care is how the government wants the public option to work, and it's a lie that the government is spending "all the money and power in the world" on Native Americans and still not serving them well.
I didn't say they were, I said they could. But it seems they like the canadian model where they just decide at the start of the year how much they are going to spend on health care and once that is gone it's just too bad.
I know Canadians thank God everyday they are getting more and more private clinics opening so they don't have to suffer waiting for treatment.
I know Canadians thank God everyday they are getting more and more private clinics opening so they don't have to suffer waiting for treatment.
I didn't say they were, I said they could. But it seems they like the canadian model where they just decide at the start of the year how much they are going to spend on health care and once that is gone it's just too bad.
You think that's the Canadian model?
Because you're utterly wrong.
I know Canadians thank God everyday they are getting more and more private clinics opening so they don't have to suffer waiting for treatment.
You don't know jack shit.
I've given up on believing anything I read about this debate. For every fact I read one way, there's another fact the other way. Then I learn that one source is a neo-con Fox News tainted piece of shit, while the other source is a leftist MSNBC piece of shit.
I love the smell of cynicism in the morning...
It'll perk you up when the sun rises. A cup of cynicism with a little nihilism mixed in for flavor. Sometimes, I'll even try some pessimism if I'm having Cinnamon Toast Crunch with it.
pessimism is better when mixed with a tablespoon of rage.
tablespoon of rage... hey, new band name!!!
tablespoon of rage... hey, new band name!!!
Moonpie said:
I don't have a fuckin' clue how health care works in Canadia, but I'm sure gonna keep talking like I do.
I don't have a fuckin' clue how health care works in Canadia, but I'm sure gonna keep talking like I do.
Moonpie said:
Yes but if the government's shitty bureaucracy gets out of control there is no place to go for justice. They own the courts so you will just be out of luck.
Yes but if the government's shitty bureaucracy gets out of control there is no place to go for justice. They own the courts so you will just be out of luck.
sigh
Time to hurt Joe. Strip his chairmanships and committee seats and cane him publicly.
How far up the (CT based) Insurance Industry's colon is Joe's head?
its because he's a Jew. a covetous Jew!
Jew or Gentile an asshole is an asshole. Baldwin for CT Senator!
is he running? because wouldn't that ruin 30 Rock, probably the best thing for his career once is hits syndication?
Meh, 30 Rock could switch to a summer shooting schedule. They could build an entire season around his campaign.
Ted Kennedy's son lives in CT also...
Liberman has got to go.
Ted Kennedy's son lives in CT also...
Liberman has got to go.
MCCONNELL: Well, it doesn’t make any difference frankly whether you opt-in or you opt-out, it’s still a government plan. You know, Medicaid, the program for the poor now, states can opt-out of that, but none of them have. I think if you have any kind of government insurance program, you’re going to be stuck with it and it will lead us in the direction of the European style, you know, sort of British-style, single payer, government run system. And those systems are known for delays, denial of care and, you know, if your particular malady doesn’t fit the government regulation, you don’t get the medication.
MILLER: Right.
MCCONNELL: And it may cost you your life. I mean, we don’t want to go down that path.
MILLER: Right.
MCCONNELL: And it may cost you your life. I mean, we don’t want to go down that path.
Ew, I'm scared.
If I didn't think it was patently dishonest, I would call his office, pretend I was a Republican from his state and tell him to shove it up his cake hole!
If I just called and said I'm a moderate Democrat from California they'd probably hang up on me.
If I just called and said I'm a moderate Democrat from California they'd probably hang up on me.
Moonpie said:
I know Canadians thank God everyday they are getting more and more private clinics opening so they don't have to suffer waiting for treatment.
I know Canadians thank God everyday they are getting more and more private clinics opening so they don't have to suffer waiting for treatment.
Wander said:
You don't know jack shit.
You don't know jack shit.
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/28/international/americas/28canada.html?ei=5090&a mp;en=ad12dcee61e8b584&ex=1298782800&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss& ;pagewanted=print
The Cambie Surgery Center, Canada's most prominent private hospital, may be considered a rogue enterprise.
Accepting money from patients for operations they would otherwise receive free of charge in a public hospital is technically prohibited in this country, even in cases where patients would wait months or even years before receiving treatment.
But no one is about to arrest Dr. Brian Day, who is president and medical director of the center, or any of the 120 doctors who work there. Public hospitals are sending him growing numbers of patients they are too busy to treat, and his center is advertising that patients do not have to wait to replace their aching knees.
The country's publicly financed health insurance system — frequently described as the third rail of its political system and a core value of its national identity — is gradually breaking down. Private clinics are opening around the country by an estimated one a week, and private insurance companies are about to find a gold mine.....
But a Supreme Court ruling last June — it found that a Quebec provincial ban on private health insurance was unconstitutional when patients were suffering and even dying on waiting lists — appears to have become a turning point for the entire country....
Over the last 18 months, the hospital has been under contract by overburdened local hospitals to perform knee, spine and gynecological operations on more than 1,000 patients.
The Cambie Surgery Center, Canada's most prominent private hospital, may be considered a rogue enterprise.
Accepting money from patients for operations they would otherwise receive free of charge in a public hospital is technically prohibited in this country, even in cases where patients would wait months or even years before receiving treatment.
But no one is about to arrest Dr. Brian Day, who is president and medical director of the center, or any of the 120 doctors who work there. Public hospitals are sending him growing numbers of patients they are too busy to treat, and his center is advertising that patients do not have to wait to replace their aching knees.
The country's publicly financed health insurance system — frequently described as the third rail of its political system and a core value of its national identity — is gradually breaking down. Private clinics are opening around the country by an estimated one a week, and private insurance companies are about to find a gold mine.....
But a Supreme Court ruling last June — it found that a Quebec provincial ban on private health insurance was unconstitutional when patients were suffering and even dying on waiting lists — appears to have become a turning point for the entire country....
Over the last 18 months, the hospital has been under contract by overburdened local hospitals to perform knee, spine and gynecological operations on more than 1,000 patients.
Sure seems like the public system is failing. Maybe the New York times is lying about all that.
Obviously waiting lists are the problem.
Again Moonpie,
We are talking about National Health Insurance here in Ahmurikah! And you can keep the Insurance you have or get other private insurance. All you can afford. The government will not be running any more hospitals than they currently do (VAs). So what is your issue?
We are talking about National Health Insurance here in Ahmurikah! And you can keep the Insurance you have or get other private insurance. All you can afford. The government will not be running any more hospitals than they currently do (VAs). So what is your issue?
Give up on Moonie, he still checks under the bed for commies before he goes to sleep
that's what makes it so awesome.
No wonder Corporate America doesn't want universal healthcare:
Tests Find Wide Range of Bisphenol A in Canned Soups, Juice, and More
Corporate America is not being very careful with our food suppy.
The lesson here
Choose fresh food whenever possible.
Consider alternatives to canned food, beverages, juices, and infant formula.
Use glass containers when heating food in microwave ovens.
and pass universal healthcare so Corporate America can't afford to kill you.
Tests Find Wide Range of Bisphenol A in Canned Soups, Juice, and More
Corporate America is not being very careful with our food suppy.
The lesson here
Choose fresh food whenever possible.
Consider alternatives to canned food, beverages, juices, and infant formula.
Use glass containers when heating food in microwave ovens.
and pass universal healthcare so Corporate America can't afford to kill you.
HEY GUYS DID YOU HEAR ABOUT CORPORATE AMERICA?
THEY"RE TRYING TOI KILL US? THEN WHO'LL BUY THEIR SHIT??! !!11!!?
All the hubbub over the "private option" may have been for naught. CBO thinks only 2% of population would use it, but it would cost them more than private insurance if they do.
Also, the Republicans finally turned in their own "health care plan". I haven't read a thing about it. Just passing on the link.
Also, the Republicans finally turned in their own "health care plan". I haven't read a thing about it. Just passing on the link.
Sure seems like the public system is failing. Maybe the New York times is lying about all that.
So, you bring up again the exact same statistics we discussed and I explained the last five hundred times you brought up the "failing" Canadian system? How many times do you have to quote the exact same puff piece from an American newspaper before you notice that it's a carbon copy of an article you linked to a year ago?
The people who died on waiting lists were terminally ill. Nothing could have saved them. Throwing that in is the NYT muddying the waters regarding the issue of "waiting lists".
It's an issue of suffering. Canadians have always had the right to get health care on their own dime. The only thing that has changed recently is that they now don't need to buy a plane ticket first. This is a step forward, but it's not an issue of hospitals being "overburdened"; that's a fabrication on the part of the NYT. It's simply acknowledging that doctors may make medically correct that still don't align with a person's personal priorities, and the person should be able to seek medical care against their doctor's advice without having to leave Canada.
Private clinics aren't taking up overspill in Canada. They're taking up elective surgeries that aren't medically necessary or even necessarily helpful (people are going to private clinics for surgeries that don't fix the underlying problem, because they'd rather treat the symptom than the disease).
gg repubs. grats.
see ya again in 13 years when we revisit this issue and try again.
see ya again in 13 years when we revisit this issue and try again.
when will people realize that the USA is not Canada, and Canada is not the USA?
Same goes for Europe.
Same goes for Europe.
It is fundamentality wrong to profit from the illness of another. Doctors, nurses, and health care workers should be well paid, but the line should be drawn there, as they are the only people in the equation actually saving lives.
Every other Western nation has some form of governmentalized, national health care system, and all of them work. I just don't understand how Americans, especially the poor, can continue to vote for a party that would rather have them out of the streets dying than in a hospital bed getting better.
Every other Western nation has some form of governmentalized, national health care system, and all of them work. I just don't understand how Americans, especially the poor, can continue to vote for a party that would rather have them out of the streets dying than in a hospital bed getting better.
Jedi Clampett said:
when will people realize that the USA is not Canada, and Canada is not the USA?
Same goes for Europe.
when will people realize that the USA is not Canada, and Canada is not the USA?
Same goes for Europe.
When will you realize that you do not need to BE us to be LIKE us. Good ideas are meant to be stolen and made available for everyone.
JT Wood said:
All the hubbub over the "private option" may have been for naught. CBO thinks only 2% of population would use it, but it would cost them more than private insurance if they do
All the hubbub over the "private option" may have been for naught. CBO thinks only 2% of population would use it, but it would cost them more than private insurance if they do
This is all due to concessions made to bring in the conservative democrats. Since the repubs are pretty lockstep and are all deadset against a public option. The dems have to appeals to their more conservative constituents, and as a result, the plan is becoming weaker and more costly. This plays right into the repub's hands. So they can release their version of the same bill a decade or so from now.
/facepalm
Wander said:
So, you bring up again the exact same statistics we discussed and I explained the last five hundred times you brought up the "failing" Canadian system? How many times do you have to quote the exact same puff piece from an American newspaper before you notice that it's a carbon copy of an article you linked to a year ago?
So, you bring up again the exact same statistics we discussed and I explained the last five hundred times you brought up the "failing" Canadian system? How many times do you have to quote the exact same puff piece from an American newspaper before you notice that it's a carbon copy of an article you linked to a year ago?
I really don't think I have used it 500 times but you're never wrong (or won't admit to ever being wrong) so there is no use in checking. But I have to ask if the number of private clinics increased or decreased in the last few years? Oh look at this quote from the LA Times:
"The first foot in the door for private medicine came in 2005, when the Supreme Court of Canada struck down the laws in Quebec that banned private insurance. The court found that having people die while on wait lists violated the province's Charter of Human Rights and Freedoms."
The court found that people died while on wait lists for healthcare? Wander you better march over there and straighten those liars out.
Private clinics aren't taking up overspill in Canada. They're taking up elective surgeries that aren't medically necessary or even necessarily helpful (people are going to private clinics for surgeries that don't fix the underlying problem, because they'd rather treat the symptom than the disease).
So who decides that those surgeries are not medically necessary? The patient, the doctor, or the amount of money remaining in the budget for that year?
But I have to ask if the number of private clinics increased or decreased in the last few years?
From 0 to more than 0? Oh man, you've got me now!
So who decides that those surgeries are not medically necessary? The patient, the doctor, or the amount of money remaining in the budget for that year?
The doctor.
I love how you've latched onto the failures of the IHS and just decided that Canada is run the exact same way without any facts or justifications.
"The first foot in the door for private medicine came in 2005, when the Supreme Court of Canada struck down the laws in Quebec that banned private insurance. The court found that having people die while on wait lists violated the province's Charter of Human Rights and Freedoms."
The court found that people died while on wait lists for healthcare? Wander you better march over there and straighten those liars out.
For the last time, the deaths were not the fault of the waiting lists. The deaths would have occurred anyway. The court found that, too; the article you keep quoting is not telling the truth.
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